Ping: Mike Easter. Opinion?

Post by T i m
I would be interested in your view of this situation

I haven't yet read the circumstances about the goat, but I have the dog.

Realize that growing up in a rural farm environment in SD is not the
same as living in a more civilized urban situation.

Today, if someone had a dog which was untrainable, undisciplinable
chicken-killing people biting dog, they would take it to an animal
shelter, presumably for the shelter to adopt out the 'pet'.

The reality of that situation is that shelter animals which are not
adoptable are euthanized.

A short part of my early years was in a very 'rural' isolated
'ranch'/farm in OK. Life and death for the associated animals was very
utilitarian and pragmatic as opposed to 'uber-humanitarian'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68909801

Post by T i m
Trump VP contender Kristi Noem defends killing her dog

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter

2024-04-28 16:47:18 UTC

Post by Mike Easter
I haven't yet read the circumstances about the goat,

Goat's undesirability as a 'household pet'.

Post by Mike Easter
Her family, she writes, also owned a male goat that was “nasty and
mean”, because it had not been castrated. Furthermore, the goat
smelled “disgusting, musky, rancid” and “loved to chase” Noem’s
children, knocking them down and ruining their clothes.

Coincidentally, KN, being in a 'dispose of the undesirable animals mood
that day' killed both the dog and the goat the same day.

Tough SD rural-raised 'girl' (now guv) who isn't afraid to show the
world how she's put together.

'Dirty Jobs' host Mike Rowe is getting a lot of 'press' media exposure
for his trade school cause on News Nation these days.

KN says some jobs are ugly and dirty but need to be done.

--
Mike Easter

T i m

2024-04-28 17:28:33 UTC

Post by Mike Easter
I haven't yet read the circumstances about the goat,

Goat's undesirability as a 'household pet'.

Coincidentally, KN, being in a 'dispose of the undesirable animals mood
that day' killed both the dog and the goat the same day.
Tough SD rural-raised 'girl' (now guv) who isn't afraid to show the
world how she's put together.
'Dirty Jobs' host Mike Rowe is getting a lot of 'press' media exposure
for his trade school cause on News Nation these days.
KN says some jobs are ugly and dirty but need to be done.

What about knowing when they 'Don't need to be done', what do you call
that action then?

I mean, we aren't talking or scrapping an old car, we are talking about
taking an animals life where there was *NO NEED* to?

Both the dog and goat could have been re-homed, if she didn't simply see
them as a possession she could just dispose of by killing.

Let's hope her husband keeps himself in check ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/domestic-violence-animal-cruelty-abuse-neglect-murder-children-dogs-a9018071.html

Cheers, T i m

T i m

2024-04-28 17:07:35 UTC

Post by T i m
I would be interested in your view of this situation

I haven't yet read the circumstances about the goat,

This one is openly readable:

https://deadline.com/2024/04/gov-kristi-noem-reveals-shot-killed-family-dog-goat-memoir-1235897397/

"The book details more animal victims. Noem also killed a male goat that
she said was “nasty and mean,” smelled “disgusting, musky, rancid,” and
“loved to chase” her children, knocking them down and ruining their
clothes. She also killed the goat in the gravel pit, although it
reportedly took two shots."

Those were the 'reasons' she used to take an animals life (inhumanely).

Post by Mike Easter
but I have the dog.
Realize that growing up in a rural farm environment in SD is not the
same as living in a more civilized urban situation.
Today, if someone had a dog which was untrainable, undisciplinable
chicken-killing people biting dog,

What, 'a dog' you mean?

Daughters rescue would likely have done all those thing when she first
got him but that's partly why she took him on. She did because she knew
he would have less of a chance with someone without the understanding
and responsibility and with respect of his rights and situation, rather
than someone looking to *buy* a compliant possession.

Post by Mike Easter
they would take it to an animal
shelter, presumably for the shelter to adopt out the 'pet'.

When you say 'today', how long ago did she do this then?

Post by Mike Easter
The reality of that situation is that shelter animals which are not
adoptable are euthanized.

Of course, animals that shouldn't be here in the first place and have
often been intentionally bred into existence by people for profit. It's
called 'exploitation' and 'abuse' and many have been imprisoned for both.

Post by Mike Easter
A short part of my early years was in a very 'rural' isolated
'ranch'/farm in OK. Life and death for the associated animals was very
utilitarian and pragmatic as opposed to 'uber-humanitarian'.

Yup, as was slavery etc.

Post by Mike Easter
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68909801

Post by T i m
Trump VP contender Kristi Noem defends killing her dog

"It was not a pleasant job," she wrote. "But it had to be done."

'It had to be done'?? Like there was no other way to deal with this 'non
compliant' innocent animal?

Like she carriers no responsibility for buying, owning (but not
training) and then killing this creature, because she didn't do exactly
what she wanted but did what many dogs may well do?

"But attempts to discipline her, including using an electronic collar,
failed, she said. "

Ah yes, that's the only way to 'train' a sensitive an innocent creature
eh, subject them to electric shocks on their throat.

Oh the irony and hypocrisy.

*She* was on her way back from *HUNTING* innocent animals when her dog
did the exact same thing ... except, for the dog it was instinct /
survival and for this nutjob it was fun.

"I hated that dog," she said. "

"The situation made her realise "another unpleasant job needed to be
done" that day - getting rid of a male goat her family owned."

*Needed?*

"The goat was "nasty and mean", smelled "disgusting, musky, rancid", and
would chase her young children, knocking them down."

Knowing they were 'her' children, I wonder how much torment the goat had
to suffer?

And yup, that sounds like many goats who have as many different
characters as we do.

"Ms Noem said she shot down the goat in the same manner as Cricket,
though the goat survived the first bullet, forcing her to go back to her
truck to retrieve another shell."

Nice, nothing like being skilled and prepared for the job ... and so
what if the goat suffered, it's only a goat right?

FWIW, my mate shot and killed his own (elderly / sick) dog but not
because the dog was nasty but because he loved him and wanted to spare
him of the fear and suffering he knows he would have had, had he taken
him to the vets to put down. He also did it with one clean shot.

"The school bus dropped her children off shortly afterwards. Noticing
that the dog was nowhere to be found, her daughter asked: "Hey, where's
Cricket?"

Doesn't sound like she was that bad a (very young) dog?

"In the book excerpt, Ms Noem said that she shared the story to
illustrate her willingness to do things that are "difficult, messy and
ugly" both in politics and in life if necessary."

Sounds like a fucking psychopath to me and certainly not someone I would
want in any position of power.

Killing to eat is one thing, killing because you didn't happen to like
them ... ?

But then you said you were ready to kill the 'annoying birds' if only
you could have done so without risking innocent people ... ?

So, back to my question, you *used* to live in a rural environment where
such things were everyday, what about now?

Cheers, T i m

Mike Easter

2024-04-28 17:27:52 UTC

Post by T i m
So, back to my question, you *used* to live in a rural environment where
such things were everyday, what about now?

Now I don't live in a rural environment.

But, I have a friend (living in a similar environment) who has to 'deal
with' more creatures than I do. I just ignore the unpleasant birds I
don't kill because it isn't feasible, appreciate the hunting skills of
the predator vs prey kite who launches silently from my fence to snag
his prey, and tell my neighbor funny stories about raccoons when we both
saw one in my yard. And ignore the rabbits, which are probably the
babies who are prey for the kite.

The friend, has to set killing traps for his frequent rats from the
nearby golf course, feeds 'his' hummingbirds (a LOT), kills his snails
w/ poison, and wanted suggestions for what to do w/ a' possum which was
messing up his wife's flower beds (and he has guns).

I told him I figured that his contracted pest guy probably has access to
a capture cage.

I recently learned that in this 'jurisdiction' such captured animals are
NOT supposed to be (simply) relocated, that it is (allegedly)
ineffective and inhumane.

The humane organizations want you to hire them to come get the animal,
if it is well.
https://www.nativeanimalrescue.org/faq-problems-with-opossums/#:~:text=You%20must%20release%20the%20opossum,isn't%20the%20best%20solution.

Not if it is unwell. Hmmm.

Other wildlife removal sites seem to cover the entire spectrum from
relocation to killing
http://wildliferemovalusa.com/opossum.html

--
Mike Easter

T i m

2024-04-28 17:57:09 UTC

Post by T i m
So, back to my question, you *used* to live in a rural environment
where such things were everyday, what about now?

Now I don't live in a rural environment.

OK.

Post by Mike Easter
But, I have a friend (living in a similar environment) who has to 'deal
with' more creatures than I do.

OK.

Post by Mike Easter
I just ignore the unpleasant birds I
don't kill because it isn't feasible,

So you would still kill them because 'they annoy you' if you could?

Post by Mike Easter
appreciate the hunting skills of
the predator vs prey kite who launches silently from my fence to snag
his prey,

Yup, nature can be cruel because that's 'survival'.

Post by Mike Easter
and tell my neighbor funny stories about raccoons when we both
saw one in my yard.

Yup, wild animals can also be interesting / fun / informative (we have
learned a lot from them). Shame they are being pushed out by us and
especially our livestock.

Post by Mike Easter
And ignore the rabbits,

Daughter had 3 'rescue' rabbits and they are very complex creatures. If
she ever took one to the vet she would often have to fully cleanse their
home and put them all together in a small space to force then to get on
with each other before putting them all back into their run / home.

which are probably the

Post by Mike Easter
babies who are prey for the kite.

Quite. Nature. No 'moral agency'. No choice.

Post by Mike Easter
The friend, has to set killing traps for his frequent rats from the
nearby golf course, feeds 'his' hummingbirds (a LOT), kills his snails
w/ poison,

Poisons that then go on to kill the birds that feed on them.

Post by Mike Easter
and wanted suggestions for what to do w/ a' possum which was
messing up his wife's flower beds (and he has guns).

A possum doing what possums do versus some likely non native flowers?

Post by Mike Easter
I told him I figured that his contracted pest guy probably has access to
a capture cage.

OK.

Post by Mike Easter
I recently learned that in this 'jurisdiction' such captured animals are
NOT supposed to be (simply) relocated, that it is (allegedly)
ineffective and inhumane.

Correct. Some non native animals, if injured and taken to a vet should
also be destroyed, according to the rules (negative impact to the
natural environment and again, generally down the the interference of man).

Post by Mike Easter
The humane organizations want you to hire them to come get the animal,
if it is well.
https://www.nativeanimalrescue.org/faq-problems-with-opossums/#:~:text=You%20must%20release%20the%20opossum,isn't%20the%20best%20solution.

Yup, there are often organisations to cover most animals.

Post by Mike Easter
Not if it is unwell. Hmmm.

Often that is down to limited resources and being able to do more for
the viable candidates.

Post by Mike Easter
Other wildlife removal sites seem to cover the entire spectrum from
relocation to killing
http://wildliferemovalusa.com/opossum.html

Yeah. We have some fairly specialised agencies that cover one biological
class like Aves (RSPB) and others that are more broad (like the RSPCA).

https://www.rspb.org.uk/

https://rspcaoandf.org.uk/

Cheers, T i m

Chris

2024-04-29 17:18:42 UTC

Post by T i m
I would be interested in your view of this situation

No such thing. A person incapable of training a dog is a thing.

Given her utter disrespect for the dog makes me believe she was mistreating
it which was the real reason why it was "untrainable".

Post by Mike Easter
chicken-killing people biting dog, they would take it to an animal
shelter, presumably for the shelter to adopt out the 'pet'.

A truly dangerous dog - because of poor upbringing - won't be handed out to
a new owner.

Mike Easter

2024-04-29 17:53:45 UTC

Post by Mike Easter
Today, if someone had a dog which was untrainable

No such thing. A person incapable of training a dog is a thing.

I disagree w/ your 'further' conclusion.

Personally, I have no experience w/ dog training, altho' I have owned
'untrained dogs'. But, I do have significant experience 'listening to'
people who have a great deal of personal experience w/ training dogs (as
non-professionals) and a great deal of personal experience w/
professionals and their dog training.

And, surely a person incapable of training a dog is a thing.

BUT...

... not all dogs are 'the same' in terms of their ability to be trained
and on the edge of the bell curve are the dogs which are untrainable,
just like the belly of the curve is a lot of dogs which are trainable
and 'different' from each other in how to best train them and on the
other edge of the curve are the dogs which are so easily trained they
practically train themselves, just by 'hanging out' w/ other trained
dogs. All of my palaver is about bird dogs, which is what this vignette
is about.

Post by Chris
Given her utter disrespect for the dog makes me believe she was mistreating
it which was the real reason why it was "untrainable".

I haven't read her book; for all I know it may have 'broken her heart'
(and she is still wounded) from that experience which she believed was
appropriate and maybe the reason she told a politically devastating
story about the experience (BIG mistake!) was somehow part of her healing.

If it 'kills' her politically, too bad for her; but maybe she will have
some personal salvation from the 'experience' of writing the exposure
down and hearing the repercussions.

Post by Mike Easter
chicken-killing people biting dog, they would take it to an animal
shelter, presumably for the shelter to adopt out the 'pet'.

A truly dangerous dog - because of poor upbringing - won't be handed out to
a new owner.

Correct. The shelter would end up euthanizing it.

Gunshot death in the gravel pit is SD style euthanasia.

--
Mike Easter

T i m

2024-04-29 18:11:09 UTC

On 29/04/2024 18:53, Mike Easter wrote:

<snip[>

Post by Mike Easter
I haven't read her book;

Where the quotes from it not enough?

Post by Mike Easter
for all I know it may have 'broken her heart'

Yeah right ... 'I hated that dog', a real sign of love eh.

Post by Mike Easter
(and she is still wounded)

Oh dear.

Post by Mike Easter
from that experience which she believed was
appropriate and maybe the reason she told a politically devastating
story about the experience (BIG mistake!)

Except she has told it to bolster her political career to those who
would likely do the exact same thing themselves.

Post by Mike Easter
was somehow part of her healing.

There was no healing because there was no suffering.

Post by Mike Easter
If it 'kills' her politically, too bad for her; but maybe she will have
some personal salvation from the 'experience' of writing the exposure
down and hearing the repercussions.

See above.

"Noem wrote that she took Cricket on a pheasant hunt with older dogs as
a learning tool for the dog. But Cricket went “out of her mind with
excitement, chasing all those birds and having the time of her life.”

So she even describes the dog as being over excited and enjoying what
she was doing'. No spite, no hatred and just back from a bird shoot.

"The book details more animal victims. Noem also killed a male goat that
she said was “nasty and mean,” smelled “disgusting, musky, rancid,” and
“loved to chase” her children, knocking them down and ruining their
clothes. She also killed the goat in the gravel pit, although it
reportedly took two shots."

Cheers, T i m

Mike Easter

2024-05-06 15:25:34 UTC

Post by T i m
Trump VP contender Kristi Noem defends killing her dog

Ha! KN 'doubles down' on her attitude about bad/dangerous dogs; says
Biden's Shepherd Commander who had bitten Secret Service personnel 24x
so far (during an 8 mo period before he was 'sent to an undisclosed
location'), should also be shot (or otherwise eliminated/ put down).

If she sent Commander to his maker, she would say "Commander, say hello
to Cricket for me."

--
Mike Easter

T i m

2024-05-06 17:27:32 UTC

Post by T i m
Trump VP contender Kristi Noem defends killing her dog

Ha! KN 'doubles down' on her attitude about bad/dangerous dogs;

Yeah, we should all be able to kill those we consider bad or dangerous.

Post by Mike Easter
says
Biden's Shepherd Commander who had bitten Secret Service personnel 24x
so far

Maybe they were spies and Commander was trying to out them.

Many people make assumptions about animals and so will often approach
them and not ask for permission from their keeper or understand the
capability / body language of the animals themselves.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-66188057

Something that would never have happened if:

He hadn't tried to impose his will an an animal protecting her calf.

"His son told the inquiry that he believed the cow had felt threatened
and attacked his father."

Wasn't exploiting the animals in the first place.

Whilst these animals are 'domesticated', they still have feelings and
instincts and are often very powerful.

Post by Mike Easter
(during an 8 mo period before he was 'sent to an undisclosed
location'), should also be shot (or otherwise eliminated/

'eliminated' from what, living and breathing?

Post by Mike Easter
put down).

If death is being provided as the most humane solution then 'put down'
or 'put to sleep' is appropriate as it reflects the empathy in the act.

If an animal is killed for fun or unnecessarily then there is no empathy
involved, or as with KN, 'hatred' because the young animal didn't do as
she preferred. 'I hated that dog / goat'.

Post by Mike Easter
If she sent Commander to his maker,

Murdered an innocent young dog you mean?

Post by Mike Easter
she would say "Commander, say hello
to Cricket for me."

I doubt she would say that at all.

More likely 'good riddance', judging by her apparent ego, arrogance and
lack of compassion.

Cheers, T i m

Chris

2024-04-28 22:21:59 UTC

Post by T i m
"What Governor Kristi Noem Murdering Her Dog & Goat Says About How
Humans Treat Animals.
Her shocking admission sparked viral outrage, but there’s a bigger
problem that needs to be addressed.
South Dakota’s Governor — and potential Donald Trump VP — Kristi Noem,
has a new book coming out next month where she proudly admits to
murdering her 14-month-old German Wirehaired Pointer, Cricket, as well
as an unnamed goat, on the same day and in the same gravel pit."
https://medium.com/vegan-animal-rights-network/what-governor-kristi-noem-murdering-her-dog-goat-says-about-the-animal-industrial-complex-834d7cd2788f

What's plainly ridiculous is that you try to find the worst examples of
human behaviour and extrapolate to all. You love your logic and this
isn't logical.

You could equally find examples of people doing extremely good things
for animals and say that everyone is an animal lover.
https://canadiangeographic.ca/articles/as-banffs-famed-wildlife-overpasses-turn-20-the-world-looks-to-canada-for-conservation-inspiration/

Post by T i m
I would be interested in your view of this situation as I believe you
have admitted to killing (or having killed) a cow(?) you raised yourself
and other animals inc deer and a wild bird because 'you could' or that
you would have killed other birds simply because they annoyed you?
If the above story is considered 'a shocking admission' by some, isn't
there then some suggestion that what she did wasn't 'acceptable'? Would
this be a 'non story' to you?
The strange thing is if you aren't a vegan then to be logically
consistent you *would* treat all animals the same ('with contempt' the
article says)

That's not logically consistent. We don't treat all humans the same.
Children follow different rules than adults. Criminals have fewer
freedoms than the general public. Soldiers are allowed to kill people.

Post by T i m
and so would kill your own dog because you chose to (the
'reason' in this case was because they didn't 'behave' as expected') and
that would be no different to choosing to kill your dog / cow / sheep to
eat (as many do)?

Just because we kill some animals for reasons that are socially
acceptable, doesn't mean we can/must kill all animals. That's just
absurd absolutism.

Question for you. If you were cereal farmer and got an infestation of
mice in your grain store potentially contaminating it all making it
unsuitable for human consumption, what would you do? Just let have at it
as that's natural and intervening would be infringing their rights, right?

T i m

2024-04-29 13:54:56 UTC

On 28/04/2024 23:21, Chris (the professional animal exploiter) drooled:

<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

https://ibb.co/sCCn11T

Cheers, T i m

Chris

2024-04-29 17:24:06 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

Your inability to respond to reasonable discussion noted.

T i m

2024-04-29 17:56:18 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

Your inability to respond to reasonable discussion noted.

It can't be as I haven't seen any 'reasonable discussion' to not respond to.

Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and reasonable
people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited, suffer and die
unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

https://ibb.co/sCCn11T

Cheers, T i m

Mike Easter

2024-04-29 18:01:50 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and reasonable
people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited, suffer and die
unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

I'm 'puzzled' as to why you are unable to perceive the similarities
between 'vegan evangelism' based on your fervent beliefs and
'conventional' evangelism based on religious beliefs which you disdain.

Strange dichotomy.

--
Mike Easter

T i m

2024-04-29 18:13:47 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and
reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Of course you are and from your POV on it and your casual attitude
towards the lives of animals, *I* can understand why.

Post by Mike Easter
Strange dichotomy.

To you. It's a clear as day to me.

Cheers, T i m

Mike Easter

2024-04-29 18:41:23 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and
reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Of course you are and from your POV on it and your casual attitude
towards the lives of animals, *I* can understand why.

Post by Mike Easter
Strange dichotomy.

To you. It's a clear as day to me.

But but but...

... don't you see?! Calling the huge majority of 'normal' people who do
NOT share your belief system *psychopaths* is so wrong, so mistaken, so
misguided as to be considered 'deranged' or incompetent.

Surely the 'average' vegan, however fervent, shouldn't be deranged or
incompetent for his beliefs.

--
Mike Easter

Snit

2024-04-29 18:48:57 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and
reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Of course you are and from your POV on it and your casual attitude
towards the lives of animals, *I* can understand why.

Post by Mike Easter
Strange dichotomy.

To you. It's a clear as day to me.

But but but...
... don't you see?! Calling the huge majority of 'normal' people who do
NOT share your belief system *psychopaths* is so wrong, so mistaken, so
misguided as to be considered 'deranged' or incompetent.
Surely the 'average' vegan, however fervent, shouldn't be deranged or
incompetent for his beliefs.

It is "clear as day" -- as it is with many strong religious folks / zealots.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

T i m

2024-04-29 19:11:29 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and
reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Of course you are and from your POV on it and your casual attitude
towards the lives of animals, *I* can understand why.

Post by Mike Easter
Strange dichotomy.

To you. It's a clear as day to me.

But but but...
... don't you see?!

What?

Post by Mike Easter
Calling the huge majority of 'normal' people who do
NOT share your belief system

It's not a 'belief system', it's 'seeing and facing the facts'.

Post by Mike Easter
*psychopaths* is so wrong, so mistaken, so
misguided as to be considered 'deranged' or incompetent.

Is it though.

Take a pig off the ramp in the slaughterhouse and put them in a gas
chamber in a public place. Do you think no one ('meat eater') would react?

Post by Mike Easter
Surely the 'average' vegan, however fervent, shouldn't be deranged or
incompetent for his beliefs.

Few vegans are that, just that most carnists prefer to hide from the
truth of what they do.

https://ibb.co/RQVbxgf

Given 'most pet owners' would do 'whatever it took' to protect their
animals demonstrates pretty clearly that they have strong feelings about
those animals they have made a connection with and the fact that they
haven't made the same connection with the others, doesn't mean they
wouldn't.

So what you are describing is the 'normalisation' of what the chances
are most would consider to be unacceptable, if they were forced to face
the consequences of their choices.

https://www.paulmccartney.com/news/if-slaughterhouses-had-glass-walls-everyone-would-be-vegetarian

"reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do."

Cheers, T i m

Snit

2024-04-29 18:49:19 UTC

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and
reasonable people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited,
suffer and die unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Of course you are and from your POV on it and your casual attitude
towards the lives of animals, *I* can understand why.

Post by Mike Easter
Strange dichotomy.

To you. It's a clear as day to me.
Cheers, T i m

It is "clear" to you based on emotion.

Chris

2024-04-29 23:06:16 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

Your inability to respond to reasonable discussion noted.

It can't be as I haven't seen any 'reasonable discussion' to not respond to.

Of course you haven't. Because you're "blind" and a hypocrite.

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and reasonable
people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited, suffer and die
unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Sure..,

Snit

2024-04-29 23:10:12 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

Your inability to respond to reasonable discussion noted.

It can't be as I haven't seen any 'reasonable discussion' to not respond to.

Of course you haven't. Because you're "blind" and a hypocrite.

Post by T i m
Resonable discussion can only come from reasonable people and reasonable
people don't intentionally cause animals to be exploited, suffer and die
unnecessarily, psychopaths do.

Sure..,

About 95% of the US population is NOT vegan. Of those who are vegan, only some
fit his definition.

By his claim the vast majority of people in the US -- and the world -- are
psychopaths. He is special.

As I said: he speaks like a religious zealot.

Chris

2024-04-30 07:44:30 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip whatifs and other irreverent bs>

Your inability to respond to reasonable discussion noted.

It can't be as I haven't seen any 'reasonable discussion' to not respond to.

The point is that moral judgements are often explored and tested by thought
experiments. The idea is that you can discuss people's judgements and weigh
them up. The classic example is the "trolley problem".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

Vegan example is if there was a group of people that the trolley was going
to hit and a large animal on an alternative line, would you divert the
trolley to save the people and kill the animal? Would it make a difference
if that animal was a cow from farm and you'd be putting it out of its
misery. Or that the people were vegan?

The mice in the grain store is a similar thought experiment. How to deal
with the infestation? Do nothing and maybe lose your livelihood? Set traps
to catch and kill the mice? Get a cat and let it do what comes naturally?

T i m

2024-04-30 09:25:40 UTC

On 30/04/2024 08:44, Chris drooled:

<snip>

https://ibb.co/sCCn11T

https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Cheers, T i m

Chris

2024-04-30 11:50:59 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?

What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?

I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

FromTheRafters

2024-04-30 11:59:56 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

T i m

2024-04-30 12:22:45 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

Thank you.

These fuckwits seem to try every strawman and rabbit hole they can to
distract the spirit of the overall goals, rather than accepting their
part in the *unnecessary* exploitation, suffering and death and
*actually* doing something positive, for the animals, the environment /
climate and so all living things.

Cheers, T i m

Chris

2024-04-30 16:10:27 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

Thank you.
These fuckwits seem to try every strawman

I mean, YOU brought up the desert island scenario. I simply responded to
it.

Post by T i m
and rabbit hole they can to
distract the spirit of the overall goals, rather than accepting their
part in the *unnecessary* exploitation, suffering and death and
*actually* doing something positive, for the animals, the environment /
climate and so all living things.

So is killing mice in a grain store necessary or unnecessary suffering and
death?

Snit

2024-04-30 16:19:47 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

Thank you.
These fuckwits seem to try every strawman

I mean, YOU brought up the desert island scenario. I simply responded to
it.

So is killing mice in a grain store necessary or unnecessary suffering and
death?

And who decides what is necessary? The religion is quite arbitrary.

David Brooks

2024-04-30 21:01:27 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

YOU have /always/ had the choice, Rafters.

I expect though, that until a few years ago, like me, you had never even
heard the term.

However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures, have you changed YOUR habits? Will you be making changes?

FromTheRafters

2024-04-30 21:15:24 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

YOU have /always/ had the choice, Rafters.

Not really, but mostly yes.

Post by David Brooks
I expect though, that until a few years ago, like me, you had never even
heard the term.

I thought they were aliens from Vega. I'm still not sure. :)

Post by David Brooks
However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures, have you changed YOUR habits? Will you be making changes?

No, but I do wish the food industry wouldn't be so cruel. It was better
when we had local farmers raising cows and pigs to supply a small
community.

T i m

2024-04-30 21:31:59 UTC

On 30/04/2024 22:15, FromTheRafters wrote:

<snip>

Post by FromTheRafters
No, but I do wish the food industry wouldn't be so cruel.

Ironically we can make it less (in a numbers sense) so by not supporting it.

Post by FromTheRafters
It was better
when we had local farmers raising cows and pigs to supply a small
community.

It potentially was, in that the animals got a semblance of 'a life',
just that it we insist on consuming them now we have to use 'factory
farming' and that in turn is not sustainable (for the masses).

And given there is no need to consume animal products for the vast
majority, especially in the Western world ...

Cheers, T i m

David Brooks

2024-04-30 21:37:47 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>
https://ibb.co/sCCn11T
https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Are you incapable of making your own responses?
What's a giant rabbit with a syringe got to do with anything?
I can guarantee you a vegan shipwrecked on an island would die of
starvation/malnutrition without eating fish or other animals on the island
if they were stuck there for a while.

Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

YOU have /always/ had the choice, Rafters.

Not really, but mostly yes.

OK - but we'll not argue on this point.

Post by David Brooks
I expect though, that until a few years ago, like me, you had never
even heard the term.

I thought they were aliens from Vega. I'm still not sure. :)

Indeed! ;-) For a while I thought always of Mr Spock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock

Post by David Brooks
However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures, have you changed YOUR habits? Will you be making changes?

No, but I do wish the food industry wouldn't be so cruel. It was better
when we had local farmers raising cows and pigs to supply a small
community.

I agree 100%. I had no real notion about the cruel practices highlighted
by 'Tim' but steps can, and should be, taken to improve these matters.
Here in Devon we *DO* have local farmers raising animals in old-
fashioned ways to supply the local populace.

There ARE happy animals amongst us! :-D

T i m

2024-04-30 21:59:56 UTC

<snip>

Post by FromTheRafters
No, but I do wish the food industry wouldn't be so cruel. It was
better when we had local farmers raising cows and pigs to supply a
small community.

I agree 100%.

'Better' other than for animals that were still killed for no good
reason you mean.

Post by David Brooks
I had no real notion about the cruel practices highlighted
by 'Tim'

'Most people' don't and part of why when those of us who do learn more
about it all we feel the need to try to educate others.

Post by David Brooks
but steps can, and should be, taken to improve these matters.

Ah yes, like giving these innocent animals bigger cages or better food
but still cutting their throats when they are very young? No real
improvement for them eh.

Post by David Brooks
Here in Devon we *DO* have local farmers raising animals in old-
fashioned ways to supply the local populace.

'Old fashioned ways' that often still include some pretty cruel
practices and definitely an early death for innocent and sentient creatures.

Post by David Brooks
There ARE happy animals amongst us!
:-D
http://youtu.be/6zbsUtQL4nY

They certainly seem happier than these ...

A newish farmer sent some pigs off to slaughter and when he went to
collect their chopped up remains the butcher apologised that he had
deboned some because it was from 'the last pig in the pen'. The farmer
wasn't sure what that was all about but didn't want to look ignorant so
didn't ask.

This happened a few times and the farmer asked and it was explained to
him that pigs are very sociable creatures and are generally content when
they are with some of their kind.

When they go for slaughter at the smaller places the pig are put in a
pen and then taken out and killed one at a time. That's 'ok' for the
remaining pigs, till there is only one pig left in the pen' when they
often panic and try to escape, often breaking their legs on / between
the bars in the process.

These are the bits of corpse they give back deboned.

Castration without aesthetic, tail cropping, teeth cutting, abuse whilst
being handled, let alone the abuse of treating them like some commodity,
just because someone wants a snack ...

Cheers, T i m

T i m

2024-04-30 21:23:40 UTC

<snip>

Post by FromTheRafters
Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

YOU have /always/ had the choice, Rafters.
I expect though, that until a few years ago, like me, you had never even
heard the term.

Yeah, the term has only been around 80 years so I'm not surprised you
haven't caught up.

https://atmos.earth/veganism-history-instagram-culture/

Not eating consuming animal products for the animals has been around for
*years*.

https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history

Post by David Brooks
However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures,

Especially these days, with all those alternative / kinder / more
sustainable choices.

<snip>

Cheers, T i m

David Brooks

2024-04-30 21:50:14 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>

Post by FromTheRafters
Veganism is about choices when you actually have choices.

YOU have /always/ had the choice, Rafters.
I expect though, that until a few years ago, like me, you had never
even heard the term.

Yeah, the term has only been around 80 years so I'm not surprised you
haven't caught up.
https://atmos.earth/veganism-history-instagram-culture/
Not eating consuming animal products for the animals has been around for
*years*.
https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history

So, just let me get this straight .......

All this information was known by *YOU* for many, many years, but *YOU*
ignored it.

Is that right?

Post by David Brooks
However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures,

Especially these days, with all those alternative / kinder / more
sustainable choices.

I have no objection, none at all, to YOU choosing to be a Vegan. Enjoy.

T i m

2024-04-30 22:16:51 UTC

On 30/04/2024 22:50, David Brooks wrote:

<snip>

Post by T i m
Not eating consuming animal products for the animals has been around
for *years*.
https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history

So, just let me get this straight .......

Ok ...

Post by David Brooks
All this information was known by *YOU* for many, many years, but *YOU*
ignored it.
Is that right?

Yes and no.

I, along with most people was indoctrinated from an early age to be
logically inconsistent. Parents teaching me to be kind and respectful to
all animals whilst at the same time they were feeding me chopped up
animal corpses and telling me it was 'all ok' when I questioned it.

The cognitive dissonance (trying to hold two conflicting views in my
mind simultaneously) was always niggling me and that's partly why I
didn't eat much meat, never eating anything much outside the std few
animals we typically eat in the UK and was drinking non calf milk and
eating non animal mince for a good few years before going vegan.

*As soon* as I was given the opportunity to be snapped out of the cult
and to go vegan, I took it. Better late than never.

Post by David Brooks
However, now you KNOW just how *BAD* we are to eat other sentient
creatures,

Especially these days, with all those alternative / kinder / more
sustainable choices.

I have no objection, none at all, to YOU choosing to be a Vegan.

Oh that's very kind David. You have no issue with me NOT exploiting
innocent creatures and causing them to suffer and die, especially given
we don't need to in the first place.

If you are waiting for me to give you the same respect, to exploit and
cause animals to suffer and die when they don't need to you will be
waiting a long time.

You will also be waiting a long time before I'll be happy about all the
wildlife you are choosing to make suffer, all the habitat being lost,
all the environmental damage, all the climate change, all the pollution
that your choices bring to all of us.

Post by David Brooks
Enjoy.

I'm certainly enjoying food now I can eat it without all the guilt
around the suffering and that I'm now reducing all those other things
that are harming all living things.

And it's do easy to do, it's just replacing one of the parts of the
'meat and two veg' with something else.

But I am able to do that because I have an open mind, I am not selfish,
I am informed, have empathy and aren't controlled by some sky wizard.

The blood / harm is on your hands.

Cheers, T i m

Snit

2024-04-30 22:51:30 UTC

Post by T i m
<snip>

Post by T i m
Not eating consuming animal products for the animals has been around
for *years*.
https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history

So, just let me get this straight .......

Ok ...

Post by David Brooks
All this information was known by *YOU* for many, many years, but *YOU*
ignored it.
Is that right?

Yes and no.
I, along with most people was indoctrinated from an early age to be
logically inconsistent.

We all are. You. Me. David. Sure.

Post by T i m
Parents teaching me to be kind and respectful to
all animals whilst at the same time they were feeding me chopped up
animal corpses and telling me it was 'all ok' when I questioned it.
The cognitive dissonance (trying to hold two conflicting views in my
mind simultaneously) was always niggling me and that's partly why I
didn't eat much meat, never eating anything much outside the std few
animals we typically eat in the UK and was drinking non calf milk and
eating non animal mince for a good few years before going vegan.
*As soon* as I was given the opportunity to be snapped out of the cult
and to go vegan, I took it. Better late than never.